Great presentation of this argument, Wayne. To take it a step further, the 10 million human children equivalent you calculated doesn't account for the living conditions up to the point of slaughter/ murder, which when taken into account puts the non human children in an even more extreme position since they are bred and raised in hell-like, torturous conditions. Thanks to you and others like you I now know about this hell on earth for trillions if we include aquatic species. And don't even get me started on the harm factory farming does to human children and those who haven't yet been born. From health to climate change, and everything in between. If we don't care about what will befall the unborn as a consequence of industrialized agriculture in all its forms, then all the talk about caring for the children is empty words. Not deliberately empty, but nonetheless empty. This blog is a good one for getting some deep thinking going! Thank you! We need more eyes to see the big picture. There are so many things that we could do to get massaging to the mainstream, but there are financial barriers among other things.
Excellent article from a brilliant mind - my hero Wayne . I don't know who R jones is , her comment on what happened on Oct 7 is a distortion and completely misleading . Human imperialism has everywhere enslaved, murdered, and mutilated the animal peoples . all around us lie slave camps we built for our fellow creatures , factory farms and vivisection labs , Dachaus and Buchenwalds for the conquered species . we slaughter animals , gun them down and stick hooks in them in the name of sport . speciesism is more deeply entrenched within us even than sexism . violence begets violence, society that is built ruthlessness, detachment , and socially acceptable violence and cruelty into every bone of our culture - such as chronic war, terrorism , genocide, starvation etc etc . we are treating symptoms without addressing the root - until we are willing and able to make the connections between what we eat and our cultural predicament, we will fail to survive on this earth. the biggest secret our dysfunctional cultural family has is our horrific brutality against animals for meals. I love you Wayne for your wisdom , and your beautiful heart .
Thanks Wayne, love this thought-provoking article! Babies are . . . babies no matter what race or species, and the intentional murder/slaughter of ANY baby is heartbreaking.
I’m writing to you because this post got me a bit worried. You mention the "children killed by Hamas”, and imply that some Israeli children were "murdered by terrorists" on purpose. I’m afraid that this is a very dangerous false accusation that Hamas targeted children in an act of terrorism.
I have to disagree with that fact and think that repeating that propaganda perpetuates violence against the oppressed people of Palestine who were trying to free themselves.
I’m writing you because I’m worried that the misinformation created by Zionists is making you think that Israel doesn’t have an intent to kill as many Palestinians as possible in the most painful way they can.
When you mention the Israeli hostages in Gaza, you ignore that Israel has rejected deals to return all hostages in exchange for a ceasefire, or that Israel had more than 7000 Palestinian hostages, even before October 7. And completely omit why Hamas was fighting back.
Using the ongoing genocide from Israel to Palestine to answer the question about which children matter is flawed because Israel is oppressing people in Gaza AND Israel (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/). You are implying this genocide is a conflict between two equally violent groups of people. But on one hand, you have a country under a blockade and occupation defending itself with what it can, and a super-rich army with nuclear power influencing the biggest institutions on the planet trying to exterminate and steal land. To me, is very clear that there is a group of people oppressing the other.
I also learned from you that non-violence is a great strategy for social and political change because the oppressor will turn violent resistance against the oppressed. So I’m very surprised that you don’t see that Zionists just doing that, and even more surprised that you are condemning the resistance of Palestine. I wish that the 75 years of Zionist oppression had backfired (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/), but after so much humiliation, death, failed attempts at diplomacy, and no help from the international community, I don’t blame Hamas for using violence to resist.
To wrap this up, if what you are suggesting in the blog post, is that we should worry about the lives that matter the most are the lives we have the most ability to change. The answer would be to care about the people from Palestine because we cannot influence Hamas. However, our tax dollars, our representatives, and our indifference are funding and encouraging the Israel Army to continue the Zionist project of killing all Palestinians and taking their land.
Sorry I haven’t seen you in so long but I hope you are doing well,
Wayne...I’ve followed you for years, and looked up to you as one of the few Asian Americans in AR leadership. It’s hard to express in words how disappointing you have been to those who have fought to consistently apply the principles that you yourself have long inspired us to carry. Besides the fact that this calculation doesn’t account for the millions of displaced Palestinians that are now suffering in refugee camps that are then bombed by Israel. Besides the fact that we should care for ALL people, children, adult, man and woman. Besides the fact that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere. Besides all of this, you clearly are (and I want to assume the best, so I will say subconsciously) biased in a very disturbing and racial way. “Unlike the Palestinian child killed in a bombing, according to this analysis, the Israeli child murdered in a kibbutz was a victim of intentional violence - an intrinsically evil act.” How is bombing civilians (now 60% of Gaza infrastructure has been destroyed. The IDF was given the coordinates of UN schools and hospitals and bombs them--there is no greater show of “intentional evil” than Israeli military occupation violence) not evil but when the roles (and races) are reversed it is? “A child who is maimed in Gaza won't suffer less because the bomber didn't intend to hurt her.” An Israeli soldier literally bombs hospitals, under marching orders from Israeli leadership that had used the strongest genocidal language imaginable, and we are...supposed to somehow do acrobatics to give them benefit of the doubt? It’s like saying an animal doesn’t suffer less simply bc a trophy hunter didn’t intend to hurt them. I would say you’re naïveté but I have too much respect for your intelligence to give you that benefit. I don’t know where to go from here, but I know it will not be with the segment of the “animal rights” movement that does not stand in solidarity against all forms of oppression. That does not have the courage of its convictions to recognize history when it is being made. When we are being tested. I never thought you of all people would not rise to meet this challenge.
My mind always takes me back to this: "Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace." Albert Schweitzer
what i like about you is how you relate the microcosm with the macrocosm. i keep posting about the land grab across the street as it relates to the land grab of the earth. as above so below. i also think about the filmmaker of gunda who notes that if we eat animals we may being animals as well be eaten.
Hi Wayne, I’ve several comments about your January 19 blog post. In a nutshell, I find your use of the ongoing catastrophe in Gaza to argue that working for the liberation of farmed animals has the most “real world impact” quite insensitive. Before getting into my critique, however, I’d like to know how you measure the “real world impact” of activism for the liberation of farmed animals in comparison to that of activism for an immediate and permanent ceasefire and the unhindered flow of humanitarian aid to Gaza.
Ending the torturing and slaughtering of farmed animals requires years of work during which billions and billions continue to be horrendously treated and killed -only a few can be saved each year. Stopping the genocide protects the remaining children from being killed or maimed by bombs, orphaned, starved to death, psychologically damaged, or dying from communicable or water-borne diseases. How can we measure the “real world impact” of potential regional and even international conflicts erupting as a result of inaction? How do we measure the impacts of these two distinct forms of activism?
My critique of some of the statements in the blog:
• You write that the American “left” has made the children of Gaza central to its “complaints”. These two words somehow evoke negative feelings, intended or not. Whom do you mean by the “left”? 80 % of Democrats have been calling for a ceasefire and they are troubled by the killing and maiming of thousands of Palestinian children and the withholding of water, food, and medical aid from them. If 80 % of Democrats were leftist, we would have had Bernie Sanders as our President, if not a revolution. And, opposition to Israel’s bombings and American complicity in it isn’t a “complaint”; it’s a full-force condemnation.
• You call Israel’s incessant bombing of hospitals, mosques, schools, ambulances, UN compound and refugee camps and the targeting of journalists and medics a “response” to the massacre of October 7. How about also calling the October 7 massacre a response to Israel’s illegal military occupation since 1967 and the complete siege of Gaza since 2007?
• You also write that the focus of the “leftists” on numbers is somewhat inappropriate. Quite to the contrary, proportionality of retaliatory military campaigns is one of the principles of the conduct of war. You find that focus “curious” because, during the bombing of Yemen, 10 times more children were killed but “little attention was paid to the children in Yemen” as opposed to the children in Gaza. It would have been indeed unforgivable if the “leftists” had not cared about the Yemeni children. The truth is that, to no avail, they did campaign for several years to stop the U.S. from selling arms to the Saudis to kill the people of Yemen.
• And, I find your advice to not attend only to the “cause of the day”, which, presumably, is trending on Twitter, quite condescending. I hope you really are not implying that causes such as stopping the genocide in Gaza have become popular because of their prominence on social media.
To conclude, I’ d like to emphasize that the fight for the liberation of animals is a fight for the liberation of all sentient beings, human or non-human animals alike.
So much to catch up on. Since your release the flow of this highly substantive thought faucet seems to have increased by a noticeable degree! However, I must apologize for not having the time or quiet of mind required to sit down and properly absorb the distributed doses of this enriching elixir. The weight of a world going down in flames, personal dilemmas, and life stuff ignored in the constant wake of global catastrophe (in which I include monumental trials such as Smithfield & Sonoma) being primary reasons. I'd imagine many can relate.
For some reason I feel the need to interject on the subject of intent but, really only in the way of reminding myself (and maybe others) about the common criminal charge of 'Reckless Homicide'. Of course you (Wayne) are the bona fide legal professional here and most likely can provide some detail and nuanced insight but, I don't see how someone who knowing fires a spray of bullets into a crowd with the intent of only hitting one specific target (for perhaps good reason one might say :/ ) can be held culpable for the death and injury of impartial parties while at the same time those that knowingly shoot mega missiles into highly populated areas are spared the same scrutiny.
Does anyone remember the "adjusted for population" stats that were presented immediately after the Israeli response had commenced? Purely on the behalf of the Israelis. Oblivious to the fact that by the same math the impact on innocent civilians killed by IDF bombs defeats their argument of proportionality. It also lessened the worth of US lives equating x number of Israelis to 1 American.
My response to my congressman (Landsman) was just as immediate. The summation pretty much being...that moral consistency is a thing.
Spraying bullets, launching missiles, or cramming thousands and thousands of living beings into a cramped, infected, windowless SHELTER and not be of the presence of mind that there is a very very high chance for harm, neglect, and unintended death to occur. Reckless Homicide. Wanton Endangerment (of the babies entrapped and the human community from which the babies are hidden).
Moral consistency.
Freedom, Peace, & Equality for every living being.
Maslow's Hierarchy can (& should) be totally applied without much stretching of interpretation or definition to the cool quadrupeds, flashy fish friends, funky fowl folk, wise octopi, & so on.
(and to any freaks that may want to jump on me, I am not saying all cows deserve condos and a new pair of sneakers. And if you truly couldn't give two craps about those that are not your own, I'd like to remind you of the impending climate collapse and overwhelming impact animal ag has on OUR environment. *Though I use OUR to mean the animals as well)
Thanks! Much love! Gearing up for all those Beagle sweeties!
I'm struggling to see which aspect of the "Impact" section wouldn't immediately be embraced by any self-described utilitarian/consequentialist I know. It's just the non-straw version of the first section.
Great presentation of this argument, Wayne. To take it a step further, the 10 million human children equivalent you calculated doesn't account for the living conditions up to the point of slaughter/ murder, which when taken into account puts the non human children in an even more extreme position since they are bred and raised in hell-like, torturous conditions. Thanks to you and others like you I now know about this hell on earth for trillions if we include aquatic species. And don't even get me started on the harm factory farming does to human children and those who haven't yet been born. From health to climate change, and everything in between. If we don't care about what will befall the unborn as a consequence of industrialized agriculture in all its forms, then all the talk about caring for the children is empty words. Not deliberately empty, but nonetheless empty. This blog is a good one for getting some deep thinking going! Thank you! We need more eyes to see the big picture. There are so many things that we could do to get massaging to the mainstream, but there are financial barriers among other things.
Brilliant. Thanks, Wayne.
Excellent article from a brilliant mind - my hero Wayne . I don't know who R jones is , her comment on what happened on Oct 7 is a distortion and completely misleading . Human imperialism has everywhere enslaved, murdered, and mutilated the animal peoples . all around us lie slave camps we built for our fellow creatures , factory farms and vivisection labs , Dachaus and Buchenwalds for the conquered species . we slaughter animals , gun them down and stick hooks in them in the name of sport . speciesism is more deeply entrenched within us even than sexism . violence begets violence, society that is built ruthlessness, detachment , and socially acceptable violence and cruelty into every bone of our culture - such as chronic war, terrorism , genocide, starvation etc etc . we are treating symptoms without addressing the root - until we are willing and able to make the connections between what we eat and our cultural predicament, we will fail to survive on this earth. the biggest secret our dysfunctional cultural family has is our horrific brutality against animals for meals. I love you Wayne for your wisdom , and your beautiful heart .
Another very interesting piece.
Thanks Wayne, love this thought-provoking article! Babies are . . . babies no matter what race or species, and the intentional murder/slaughter of ANY baby is heartbreaking.
Hi my friend,
I’m writing to you because this post got me a bit worried. You mention the "children killed by Hamas”, and imply that some Israeli children were "murdered by terrorists" on purpose. I’m afraid that this is a very dangerous false accusation that Hamas targeted children in an act of terrorism.
I have to disagree with that fact and think that repeating that propaganda perpetuates violence against the oppressed people of Palestine who were trying to free themselves.
Unlike the Israeli army, Palestinian fighters targeted the occupation soldiers and those who carried weapons against the Palestinian people. This has been confirmed by Hamas (https://www.palestinechronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/PDF.pdf) and Israel has been unable to prove otherwise. On the other hand, there is plenty of proof that Israel has targeted Children as a tool for terror and has genocidal intent (https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove).
I’m writing you because I’m worried that the misinformation created by Zionists is making you think that Israel doesn’t have an intent to kill as many Palestinians as possible in the most painful way they can.
When you mention the Israeli hostages in Gaza, you ignore that Israel has rejected deals to return all hostages in exchange for a ceasefire, or that Israel had more than 7000 Palestinian hostages, even before October 7. And completely omit why Hamas was fighting back.
Using the ongoing genocide from Israel to Palestine to answer the question about which children matter is flawed because Israel is oppressing people in Gaza AND Israel (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/). You are implying this genocide is a conflict between two equally violent groups of people. But on one hand, you have a country under a blockade and occupation defending itself with what it can, and a super-rich army with nuclear power influencing the biggest institutions on the planet trying to exterminate and steal land. To me, is very clear that there is a group of people oppressing the other.
I also learned from you that non-violence is a great strategy for social and political change because the oppressor will turn violent resistance against the oppressed. So I’m very surprised that you don’t see that Zionists just doing that, and even more surprised that you are condemning the resistance of Palestine. I wish that the 75 years of Zionist oppression had backfired (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/), but after so much humiliation, death, failed attempts at diplomacy, and no help from the international community, I don’t blame Hamas for using violence to resist.
To wrap this up, if what you are suggesting in the blog post, is that we should worry about the lives that matter the most are the lives we have the most ability to change. The answer would be to care about the people from Palestine because we cannot influence Hamas. However, our tax dollars, our representatives, and our indifference are funding and encouraging the Israel Army to continue the Zionist project of killing all Palestinians and taking their land.
Sorry I haven’t seen you in so long but I hope you are doing well,
Maya
Thanks for this thoughtful article on such a difficult situation.
Wayne...I’ve followed you for years, and looked up to you as one of the few Asian Americans in AR leadership. It’s hard to express in words how disappointing you have been to those who have fought to consistently apply the principles that you yourself have long inspired us to carry. Besides the fact that this calculation doesn’t account for the millions of displaced Palestinians that are now suffering in refugee camps that are then bombed by Israel. Besides the fact that we should care for ALL people, children, adult, man and woman. Besides the fact that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere. Besides all of this, you clearly are (and I want to assume the best, so I will say subconsciously) biased in a very disturbing and racial way. “Unlike the Palestinian child killed in a bombing, according to this analysis, the Israeli child murdered in a kibbutz was a victim of intentional violence - an intrinsically evil act.” How is bombing civilians (now 60% of Gaza infrastructure has been destroyed. The IDF was given the coordinates of UN schools and hospitals and bombs them--there is no greater show of “intentional evil” than Israeli military occupation violence) not evil but when the roles (and races) are reversed it is? “A child who is maimed in Gaza won't suffer less because the bomber didn't intend to hurt her.” An Israeli soldier literally bombs hospitals, under marching orders from Israeli leadership that had used the strongest genocidal language imaginable, and we are...supposed to somehow do acrobatics to give them benefit of the doubt? It’s like saying an animal doesn’t suffer less simply bc a trophy hunter didn’t intend to hurt them. I would say you’re naïveté but I have too much respect for your intelligence to give you that benefit. I don’t know where to go from here, but I know it will not be with the segment of the “animal rights” movement that does not stand in solidarity against all forms of oppression. That does not have the courage of its convictions to recognize history when it is being made. When we are being tested. I never thought you of all people would not rise to meet this challenge.
My mind always takes me back to this: "Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace." Albert Schweitzer
what i like about you is how you relate the microcosm with the macrocosm. i keep posting about the land grab across the street as it relates to the land grab of the earth. as above so below. i also think about the filmmaker of gunda who notes that if we eat animals we may being animals as well be eaten.
Hi Wayne, I’ve several comments about your January 19 blog post. In a nutshell, I find your use of the ongoing catastrophe in Gaza to argue that working for the liberation of farmed animals has the most “real world impact” quite insensitive. Before getting into my critique, however, I’d like to know how you measure the “real world impact” of activism for the liberation of farmed animals in comparison to that of activism for an immediate and permanent ceasefire and the unhindered flow of humanitarian aid to Gaza.
Ending the torturing and slaughtering of farmed animals requires years of work during which billions and billions continue to be horrendously treated and killed -only a few can be saved each year. Stopping the genocide protects the remaining children from being killed or maimed by bombs, orphaned, starved to death, psychologically damaged, or dying from communicable or water-borne diseases. How can we measure the “real world impact” of potential regional and even international conflicts erupting as a result of inaction? How do we measure the impacts of these two distinct forms of activism?
My critique of some of the statements in the blog:
• You write that the American “left” has made the children of Gaza central to its “complaints”. These two words somehow evoke negative feelings, intended or not. Whom do you mean by the “left”? 80 % of Democrats have been calling for a ceasefire and they are troubled by the killing and maiming of thousands of Palestinian children and the withholding of water, food, and medical aid from them. If 80 % of Democrats were leftist, we would have had Bernie Sanders as our President, if not a revolution. And, opposition to Israel’s bombings and American complicity in it isn’t a “complaint”; it’s a full-force condemnation.
• You call Israel’s incessant bombing of hospitals, mosques, schools, ambulances, UN compound and refugee camps and the targeting of journalists and medics a “response” to the massacre of October 7. How about also calling the October 7 massacre a response to Israel’s illegal military occupation since 1967 and the complete siege of Gaza since 2007?
• You also write that the focus of the “leftists” on numbers is somewhat inappropriate. Quite to the contrary, proportionality of retaliatory military campaigns is one of the principles of the conduct of war. You find that focus “curious” because, during the bombing of Yemen, 10 times more children were killed but “little attention was paid to the children in Yemen” as opposed to the children in Gaza. It would have been indeed unforgivable if the “leftists” had not cared about the Yemeni children. The truth is that, to no avail, they did campaign for several years to stop the U.S. from selling arms to the Saudis to kill the people of Yemen.
• And, I find your advice to not attend only to the “cause of the day”, which, presumably, is trending on Twitter, quite condescending. I hope you really are not implying that causes such as stopping the genocide in Gaza have become popular because of their prominence on social media.
To conclude, I’ d like to emphasize that the fight for the liberation of animals is a fight for the liberation of all sentient beings, human or non-human animals alike.
An excellent article that examines a topic I rarely see from a viewpoint that’s almost never expressed. Thank you Wayne. I’m about to share it now.
So much to catch up on. Since your release the flow of this highly substantive thought faucet seems to have increased by a noticeable degree! However, I must apologize for not having the time or quiet of mind required to sit down and properly absorb the distributed doses of this enriching elixir. The weight of a world going down in flames, personal dilemmas, and life stuff ignored in the constant wake of global catastrophe (in which I include monumental trials such as Smithfield & Sonoma) being primary reasons. I'd imagine many can relate.
For some reason I feel the need to interject on the subject of intent but, really only in the way of reminding myself (and maybe others) about the common criminal charge of 'Reckless Homicide'. Of course you (Wayne) are the bona fide legal professional here and most likely can provide some detail and nuanced insight but, I don't see how someone who knowing fires a spray of bullets into a crowd with the intent of only hitting one specific target (for perhaps good reason one might say :/ ) can be held culpable for the death and injury of impartial parties while at the same time those that knowingly shoot mega missiles into highly populated areas are spared the same scrutiny.
Does anyone remember the "adjusted for population" stats that were presented immediately after the Israeli response had commenced? Purely on the behalf of the Israelis. Oblivious to the fact that by the same math the impact on innocent civilians killed by IDF bombs defeats their argument of proportionality. It also lessened the worth of US lives equating x number of Israelis to 1 American.
My response to my congressman (Landsman) was just as immediate. The summation pretty much being...that moral consistency is a thing.
Spraying bullets, launching missiles, or cramming thousands and thousands of living beings into a cramped, infected, windowless SHELTER and not be of the presence of mind that there is a very very high chance for harm, neglect, and unintended death to occur. Reckless Homicide. Wanton Endangerment (of the babies entrapped and the human community from which the babies are hidden).
Moral consistency.
Freedom, Peace, & Equality for every living being.
Maslow's Hierarchy can (& should) be totally applied without much stretching of interpretation or definition to the cool quadrupeds, flashy fish friends, funky fowl folk, wise octopi, & so on.
(and to any freaks that may want to jump on me, I am not saying all cows deserve condos and a new pair of sneakers. And if you truly couldn't give two craps about those that are not your own, I'd like to remind you of the impending climate collapse and overwhelming impact animal ag has on OUR environment. *Though I use OUR to mean the animals as well)
Thanks! Much love! Gearing up for all those Beagle sweeties!
-Molloy
Beautifully writtenand brilliantly organized. Thank you🙏
I'm struggling to see which aspect of the "Impact" section wouldn't immediately be embraced by any self-described utilitarian/consequentialist I know. It's just the non-straw version of the first section.
Another great article, thank you!