I'm totally with you on eliminating factory farms. What is the best approach to the end? What organizations other than DAE are working in a meaningful way toward this end?
I believe you may have intended to say: DxE as regards effective,aggressive and actually do something advocates for the health and well-being of factory farmed animals.
Regardless DxE is successful and working hard with an important animal well being court trial coming up in NAPA
COUNTY,CALIFORNIA.
Be alert!
My opinion is that the coming trial could very important.
Totally agree that the enormity of wild animal suffering directly and indirectly caused by human activities is almost unfathomable. That terrestrial vertebrate wildlife populations have been reduced to less than 5% of the Earth's total biomass with the remaining 95% made up of human beings and their domestic animals testifies to the ecologic scourge that has been visited upon our planet by Homo sapiens. What must it be like as a species to see your conspecifics being relentlessly killed off and your companions continually whittled down until you are the only member of your species left alive? Ask a vaquita in the Sea of Cortez what that particular horror must be like. The one thing I would disagree with are any statements about what people will be saying 100 years from now about how we have treated our fellow earthlings. Anyone who believes that the current ecologic End Times is going to leave any vestige of a human civilization a century from now with time enough on its hands for self-reflection is whistling past the graveyard.
I think veganism is a subset of suffering focused ethics. If we had world veganism tomorrow, there would still be plenty of work to do for the animals.
Thank you for your attention to this important matter! As evolutionary forces, we should continue to explore how to best minimize the suffering of our fellow earthlings.
I’m bothered more and more by the thought that we humans are a cancer for this planet. I'm always questioning whether I can help stop this in some small way, just from my own habits. Thank you, Wayne.
I totally agree that native wild animals matter and humans should stop destroying natural ecosystems. However, I am very opposed to what I have come across is some segments of the animal rights and vegan community - that humans should sterilize native carnivores because that would reduce suffering and that extinction in general is a good thing because it reduces suffering. These are the vegans who think that native, and even endangered, animal species are no more important or worthy of protection than introduced, and even invasive, animal species. These vegans also think that palm oil is no worse than sunflower oil because an orangutan in Southeast Asia is no more important or worthy of protection than a field mouse in Europe. These vegans ridicule and wish to silence any criticism of those vegan raw materials that are causing the destruction of tropical forests and vegan products in packaging that is not recycleable or compostable.
Definitely not down for ridicule or silencing anyone. Also share your skepticism of interventions into natural systems. I'd compare to intervention in the affairs of other nation-states. Not a great track record of success!
I think reserving moral status strictly for living beings leads to degenerate conclusions, and this becomes even more apparent when we include lower cognition animals. Like how act utilitarianism gives degenerate conclusions so you reach for rule utilitarianism.
People are codependent in needing social meaning, so prioritizing people requires you to prioritize social contexts which allow them to develop meaning, even though some aspects of suffering remain inextricable from those contexts. Would we consider a future where humans are all genetically/hormonally adjusted and coached from infancy to be fully desocialized and emotionally complete alone, without codependence on other humans, to be a dystopia? So everyone just lives fully alone? I think it would be maybe nearly as dystopic as a future without humans.
I think that biodiversity and ecological resilience are part of the context of animals' welfare. If we value animals, we should value their ecosystems.
Let's say we could cull all the wolves from the wild while keeping our vegetarian pet dogs, preventing herbivore overpopulation by some kind of automated population-based sterilization processes. Let's say we could reengineer frogs to have only few tadpoles, destroying their evolutionary viability but propping up their population by placing engineered frog incubation structures into the ponds.
Then aren't we depleting the resources of our Easter Island globe, abandoning our biological heritage and hoping we can depend on our new silicon systems for meaning and value?
I think we should be very slow to abandon our indigenous ecologies, just as we should treasure our indigenous communities. Let's not colonize our own ecologies!
And on a second look, I do think the benignly psychopathic dystopia would be significantly less dystopic than a humanless dystopia. But still way far down the dystopic path.
All our problems, including the enshrined predatory wasting cruelty we have specially perfected, lead to ecology, biosphere. We're living on the threshhold of this fact. Our problems have numerous Leaders who are flattering themselves into impotence and retirement. It is important to read events accurately and voice the narrative of reality which is the Spirit of Earth. We are part of Earth however outstanding we are. To admit our mistakes ־־as a species־־ among species is the same learning process you are trying to accoplish in this phase in your work. Animal liberation ־־from human ignorance־־ is happening.
'Wlld' is a construct of domesticity.
Livestock are massively distorted by our artifice. Livestocking is just hunting made easy. We are moving beyond ignorant/artificial hunting mayhem into a life of growth and real cultivation/fertilization.
Maybe you'd detail this article by looking at how wildlife rescuers from less westernized places see life and death. Also, herbological wisdom which underlay early medicine, has roots going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years...gathered by humans who came to see animals as spirit guides. This lore has contemporary bearers who would be thrilled to share their understanding as clues to the issues you raise.
It needs to start with changing our hearts.
Otherwise, billions of beings will be left suffering and only the farm animals will benefit.
I'm totally with you on eliminating factory farms. What is the best approach to the end? What organizations other than DAE are working in a meaningful way toward this end?
RENATE,
I believe you may have intended to say: DxE as regards effective,aggressive and actually do something advocates for the health and well-being of factory farmed animals.
Regardless DxE is successful and working hard with an important animal well being court trial coming up in NAPA
COUNTY,CALIFORNIA.
Be alert!
My opinion is that the coming trial could very important.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts!
A social movement! Change by Damon Centola is a great place to start.
Totally agree that the enormity of wild animal suffering directly and indirectly caused by human activities is almost unfathomable. That terrestrial vertebrate wildlife populations have been reduced to less than 5% of the Earth's total biomass with the remaining 95% made up of human beings and their domestic animals testifies to the ecologic scourge that has been visited upon our planet by Homo sapiens. What must it be like as a species to see your conspecifics being relentlessly killed off and your companions continually whittled down until you are the only member of your species left alive? Ask a vaquita in the Sea of Cortez what that particular horror must be like. The one thing I would disagree with are any statements about what people will be saying 100 years from now about how we have treated our fellow earthlings. Anyone who believes that the current ecologic End Times is going to leave any vestige of a human civilization a century from now with time enough on its hands for self-reflection is whistling past the graveyard.
Had not heard the story of the vaquita. Very sad. Thanks for sharing that.
Whether humans will change in 100 years, we'll see. I believe empathy is embedded in the logic of consciousness.
I think veganism is a subset of suffering focused ethics. If we had world veganism tomorrow, there would still be plenty of work to do for the animals.
Thank you for your attention to this important matter! As evolutionary forces, we should continue to explore how to best minimize the suffering of our fellow earthlings.
I’m bothered more and more by the thought that we humans are a cancer for this planet. I'm always questioning whether I can help stop this in some small way, just from my own habits. Thank you, Wayne.
We're all part of the change, Will!
I totally agree that native wild animals matter and humans should stop destroying natural ecosystems. However, I am very opposed to what I have come across is some segments of the animal rights and vegan community - that humans should sterilize native carnivores because that would reduce suffering and that extinction in general is a good thing because it reduces suffering. These are the vegans who think that native, and even endangered, animal species are no more important or worthy of protection than introduced, and even invasive, animal species. These vegans also think that palm oil is no worse than sunflower oil because an orangutan in Southeast Asia is no more important or worthy of protection than a field mouse in Europe. These vegans ridicule and wish to silence any criticism of those vegan raw materials that are causing the destruction of tropical forests and vegan products in packaging that is not recycleable or compostable.
Definitely not down for ridicule or silencing anyone. Also share your skepticism of interventions into natural systems. I'd compare to intervention in the affairs of other nation-states. Not a great track record of success!
thank you'll
What deserves moral status?
Should ecological systems, human cultural aspects like languages, and endangered species be centers of moral status? Records of history?
Or do we reserve moral status for living beings only?
Hard question. Your thoughts?
I think reserving moral status strictly for living beings leads to degenerate conclusions, and this becomes even more apparent when we include lower cognition animals. Like how act utilitarianism gives degenerate conclusions so you reach for rule utilitarianism.
People are codependent in needing social meaning, so prioritizing people requires you to prioritize social contexts which allow them to develop meaning, even though some aspects of suffering remain inextricable from those contexts. Would we consider a future where humans are all genetically/hormonally adjusted and coached from infancy to be fully desocialized and emotionally complete alone, without codependence on other humans, to be a dystopia? So everyone just lives fully alone? I think it would be maybe nearly as dystopic as a future without humans.
I think that biodiversity and ecological resilience are part of the context of animals' welfare. If we value animals, we should value their ecosystems.
Let's say we could cull all the wolves from the wild while keeping our vegetarian pet dogs, preventing herbivore overpopulation by some kind of automated population-based sterilization processes. Let's say we could reengineer frogs to have only few tadpoles, destroying their evolutionary viability but propping up their population by placing engineered frog incubation structures into the ponds.
Then aren't we depleting the resources of our Easter Island globe, abandoning our biological heritage and hoping we can depend on our new silicon systems for meaning and value?
I think we should be very slow to abandon our indigenous ecologies, just as we should treasure our indigenous communities. Let's not colonize our own ecologies!
I meant Easter Island not Ellis Island, sorry.
And on a second look, I do think the benignly psychopathic dystopia would be significantly less dystopic than a humanless dystopia. But still way far down the dystopic path.
All our problems, including the enshrined predatory wasting cruelty we have specially perfected, lead to ecology, biosphere. We're living on the threshhold of this fact. Our problems have numerous Leaders who are flattering themselves into impotence and retirement. It is important to read events accurately and voice the narrative of reality which is the Spirit of Earth. We are part of Earth however outstanding we are. To admit our mistakes ־־as a species־־ among species is the same learning process you are trying to accoplish in this phase in your work. Animal liberation ־־from human ignorance־־ is happening.
'Wlld' is a construct of domesticity.
Livestock are massively distorted by our artifice. Livestocking is just hunting made easy. We are moving beyond ignorant/artificial hunting mayhem into a life of growth and real cultivation/fertilization.
Maybe you'd detail this article by looking at how wildlife rescuers from less westernized places see life and death. Also, herbological wisdom which underlay early medicine, has roots going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years...gathered by humans who came to see animals as spirit guides. This lore has contemporary bearers who would be thrilled to share their understanding as clues to the issues you raise.